Rachael Rowe: Hi, and welcome back to our Seismic Sessions podcast, where today we’ll be looking at the importance of marketing in a downturned economy. I am joined as always by my colleague, Gemma Livermore, Head of International Financial Services Marketing here at Seismic.
Hi Gemma.
Gemma Livermore: Hi Rachael, nice to be here again.
Rachael Rowe: Likewise, lovely to have you here. We’re also joined by Caroline Ericsson, UK Head of Marketing and Communication at ABN AMRO. Welcome, Caroline.
Caroline Ericsson: Hello. Thank you for having me.
Rachael Rowe: Thank you, Caroline. And Aimee Cole, Head of Marketing at ClearBank. Thanks for joining us today, Aimee.
Aimee Cole: Great to be here.
Rachael Rowe: So to kick us off, let’s get started with an icebreaker. What does enabling the financial services industry mean to you? Caroline, if we could come to you first.
Caroline Ericsson: I think for me, personally, it’s always that balance between creativity and regulation, and I think, I try to arm myself and the teams with that knowledge from the regulatory side, so that you can be as creative as you want, within those regulatory, kind of, frameworks, if you like.
But I think for us, any marketer in financial services are always going to have that balance. And I think knowledge is key. And so the more you know about the regulatory landscape, the better. You can be creative within it.
Rachael Rowe: Thank you, Caroline. And that’s a really interesting point to start with, that tension, between regulation and creativity. So thanks for surfacing that one. Aimee, what does enabling financial services mean to you?
Aimee Cole: I think as Caroline says, there is a balancing act between regulation and creativity and our role as marketers is to make sure that we’re on the right side of that. But also that tension isn’t necessarily visible to the people that we’re trying to sell it to, we need to be on the right side of the regulatory landscape, while bringing new products and new services to market in an exciting way.
Rachael Rowe: Yeah, that’s a really interesting point. And I think also then the challenge, by implication is doing that at scale and consistently, so that brings a fresh, kind of, a fresh hurdle to overcome. And finally, Gemma, what are your thoughts on this?
Gemma Livermore: On this, I’d say, in its simplest form, it would just be making people do their jobs easier, and then if you look at that from what these two have just said, I think it’s completely right that knowledge is that key to making the job easier, but not everyone can know everything. So sometimes that enablement factor is giving people access to that knowledge that you have. So sharing it, if you like.
Rachael Rowe: Thank you. And thank you all for those initial thoughts. I think now that we’re warmed up a little bit, let’s delve into today’s topic which first came to my attention in a recent Forbes article entitled The Cost of Cutting Corners. I think in uncertain times of economic decline, and that’s certainly what we’ve been living through recently, many businesses are looking at cutting costs.
But I think when it comes to marketing, we need to ask a further question, which is, can you to stop? And I think, particularly within financial services, where dynamic personalisation, providing the right message, at the right time, in the right way, as I like to think of it, as that martini moment that can be key to client experience. and I’m really looking forward to our conversation today to unpack this hot topic. Now, as our regular listeners will know, each of our podcasts is split out in terms of our seismic earthquake terminology. Beginning with looking at the tremors, where the movement started, the epicentre, where we are now and then make our predictions for the future, what will be the aftershocks? So let’s start with the tremors. Let’s look back at how marketing has fitted around economic ups and downs. And so I’m interested to know what has that landscape looked like in your own careers? Aimee, if you would like to start us off.
Aimee Cole: I think, looking back, when times are good, you’ve got high spends, you’ve got space to test and learn, you’ve got bigger budgets to focus on brand rather than pure direct acquisition. You can look at sponsorships and activation and there’s all of these new and exciting channels that are open to you and you can test in that way. that’s the good days, as it were, you’ve got those budgets, but then there’s also what can come with that. You can end up in a position where you’ve got big teams, growth has happened really quickly, and there’s been a real focus on just getting hands on deck and teams can become quite bloated quite quickly. And so I think there’s a real need to make sure that in those good times that you are hiring strategically with a view to the future. I think there’s also a risk when you times are good, and you have those big marketing budgets, you can go down the rabbit hole of kind of death by KPIs and vanity metrics, a, look, we’re so busy, we’re doing all of this exciting stuff without actually taking time to really assess if activity is a growth lever. and if it’s doing what you need it to do within your business.
Gemma Livermore: I love what you said there, Aimee, the, in periods where you’ve got lots of budget, that’s your time to test and learn. And it’s almost like that investment time, isn’t it? To start investing in that testing and learning so that you’ve got knowledge behind you when you lose the budget. To know what works and what doesn’t and streamline.
I really love that idea of, yeah, of looking at how you can spend your money wisely for the downturns in the future. Cause we all know that it’s an up and down economy all the time. It’s never always good. It’s never always bad. And, I love that idea.
Rachael Rowe: Yeah, that, that’s very true. We’re always riding this wave and hindsight is a wonderful thing. So I think you’ve got some really good points that you’ve brought out there, Aimee. I agree, Gemma. Caroline, what was your experience? What are the good days like when marketing, the envelope spends are high compared to when they’re minimal or, nil?
Caroline Ericsson: So I think that there was always good days in marketing. Glass half full.
Glass half full.
We need that, right? We do, need that for sure. I try.
I think, for me, whether, we’ve been in, in strong economies or weaker economies, I’ve always felt almost year on year that we’re trying to achieve more, more with less, whether, that’s, upturn or not.
And so I think as marketers, we’re really, positioned to do more with less, because I think certainly for me as a mindset, that’s something that got experience of doing and, but again, that channels the creativity, right? Yeah. So you do need to think outside the box so that you can get to those same results.
And also going back to Aimee’s point that we need to review our KPIs and think which ones of these really matter, which ones these do add to the bottom line of the business, what are we using these metrics for and not be blinded by the metrics so it comes back to. Often I think, and it sounds really old school, I’m going to show my age now, but it also comes down to, being a marketing generalist. And I think when we are in times where we are having to adapt and do more with less, to have that generalist mindset, at the helm of the team, but also within your teams, means that you can be a lot more agile because you will have those teams with a really broad skill set. And I think that’s really important.
And I also think that you need to keep quite an entrepreneurial mindset, right? So you have to try things with less, without the budget. And so you need to think creatively on how to do that.
Rachael Rowe: Yeah, I love that. And I really love the point around creativity as well. And I’m going to bounce this over to Gemma because you’re well known for your creative flair. So, how did it affect your creativity? Pre hybrid working, so when folks were office bound, how, did that affect creativity?
And I’d say, how has that changed the marketing landscape, do you feel?
Gemma Livermore: So I always think same as what Caroline’s just said, you almost create the magic where you’ve got that pressure to create more with less, I always say it’s like where they say diamonds formed under pressure, you’re under pressure and you get that, diamond out of it. and I always find it quite cool, fun, cause you get to be creative around what you can do with less or zero budget as I’ve been in and sometimes, and it does go back to that entrepreneurial side as well, cause I speak to a lot of founders and they say that they have to have that mindset about them all the time for not having budget, whether it’s a good market or a bad market as well.
So you can always create something, I’ll go back to Caroline’s half full idea earlier, you can always create something. It’s just, what can you create? It’s like booking a holiday, isn’t it? Okay. Where can you go within that budget? You’re not always going to choose the far away land that you want to go to, but you can still make a great holiday out of it. I’ve, I started my career back in the early 2000s when in banking, as it was called then, very chunky name, it was, it was just starting to boom. And then by 2008, we were officially in a recession. So it was a really good time to start my career and see that actually you can work your way through a recession and you can do all of those magical things with next to no money.
And it’s a great time, I think, for anybody to start their career because things can then only get better. I’d say successful marketing is always about consistency. So don’t ever stop. That’s never going to help anyone keep moving forward. Even if it’s little movements, it’s always moving forward. I see Caroline nodding her head, so glad somebody’s agreeing with me.
Yeah. Yeah. And I’d say that this time around, the difference that we have is hindsight. So we can look back and we can see figures. I looked at some figures before this podcast, and it said that in the 2008 recession, while many businesses decided to cut their marketing budget and it actually dropped by 13 percent, statistics show that 3.5 times more brand visibility came out for those companies and organisations that maintained the marketing output. So keep moving forward, even if it’s small movements, just keep doing it and be consistent.
Absolutely.
Caroline Ericsson: And also zoning in on what matters most to your clients, right? So if you have less budgets, if you have less spend, and if you have less resource, you almost need to go back to basics from a, from an external positioning point of view as well and look at your core target segments of customers and what matters to them and how can you show that you’re supporting them?
So I think downturns and recessions are also really nice opportunities for financial institutions to market to clients, and I think really, then, you have the opportunity, as a brand, to build that trust with your clients and show them that, that you were there with them in the hard times.
And that can lead to really nice.
They’re also in hard times, aren’t they?
Absolutely. So there is that relationship and there is that partnership that then, forms during, those times of, hardship. I
Rachael Rowe: Yeah, absolutely. I’m loving the optimism, but I, and I completely agree. I think when you go through tough times together with your clients or within your organisation, that’s when you really form those strong bonds. And I think also the theme that’s coming out about doing more with less, I think will be something that we’re going to revisit as, we continue this, conversation.
And one thing I wanted to touch on whilst, whilst we’re thinking about the tremors, whilst we’re thinking about, the way things have been going. been recently, I wanted to bring out the hybrid working piece because I think that’s something that inevitably forms part of our landscape.
And I wanted to come to you, Aimee, because, I know in our previous discussion, we talked a little bit about hybrid working and how you can really address that when running and coaching a marketing team in that kind of environment. So I’d like to bounce that one over to you to unpack a little bit.
Aimee Cole: Yeah, thank you. And I think when we were office bound five days a week, which still feels crazy now we’ve moved into this more flexible hybrid working environment, it has some benefits to it, being in the office five days a week, it can create a deeper sense of camaraderie.
But it also means that some voices don’t necessarily get heard. The louder people can impact the culture of a business. You can end up in a position where that’s been driven by the few and not the many. And I think the move to hybrid working has been hugely beneficial for many people in many different ways for work life balance for enabling more women to stay within the workforce and to progress within their careers working with flexible organisations.
There’s huge benefits to it, but I also think it comes with a challenge in that you do want to create that sense of team culture and also when you think of, more junior members of a team starting out in their careers within marketing, for example, you do, or you can miss that kind of learning by osmosis thing that you get from being in an office, being surrounded by people and just hearing the conversations, learning that there’s a new product about to be launched soon, but they’re not quite ready to do the big kickoff meeting with the marketing team yet, but you can start to pick up on these things.
And we know that financial services and FinTech, we love an acronym. and we have a huge kind of glossary of these things at ClearBank to help people, but there’s nothing like being in the office with people to just say, what does that actually mean? And to get that explanation, rather than having to send a Teams message where you might feel a bit silly.
Gemma Livermore: Hearing how other people describe something or how they would describe a product rather than just reading about it, you can pick up little nuances in what works in describing something and how you then pitch that from a marketing angle. If you hear how they sell it, and then you suddenly think, actually, if I change my wording slightly, it would align with them more and just hearing those conversations around the office that you’re not part of that earwigging, obviously, as I am, I’ve just given away my, my tips, and I also worry like how those people will then hear about what’s above them and climb that career ladder when they’re siloed only into conversations that they’re invited in on a zoom meeting or something, if they’re not hearing them externally through the office floor and that kind of thing.
Aimee Cole: It’s exactly that. And I think particularly for people earlier in their careers as well, it can lead to it taking longer for them to be able to truly add value because they’re not hearing those things that, as you say, they’re not in those meetings unless they’re specifically invited to them because it’s remote. And that can be a real challenge and that knowledge sharing element and the tech that has enabled us all to work remotely is great, and in some occasions it can give, give other voices the opportunity to be heard, people who might not be comfortable standing up in person in a meeting, for example, but it does come with its own special set of challenges as well.
Rachael Rowe: I totally agree. And I think meetings can be a little bit of a black hole, can’t they? If you’re not involved in those meetings, you don’t know what’s happened in those meetings. And when you’re going up a learning curve, as Gemma says, that can be quite a challenge. No, thank you for that Aimee. I think that’s a really valuable perspective. One, one thing we haven’t talked about yet, because obviously we’ve been talking about the way the world used to be to a certain extent is, the role that technology plays and maybe how that’s shifted a dial on some of these elements. So I guess now’s a good time to move to the epicentre.
So we’re moving forward to today. so it’s a turbulent time. I think we’d all agree. so how do you balanced cost pressure driven by the current economic climate with the need to maintain marketing spend. So the need for marketing to support the team to sail a company through the downturn. And I think to start that piece of our conversation, Caroline, I’d be really keen to get your thoughts on this.
Caroline Ericsson: Again, it comes back to having a team that are generalists rather than, having a large team with many who are specialists. And I think, going back to the hybrid working discussion as well, it demands more from the leadership within the business to create an environment where culture and collaboration and all these things continue to thrive as people are working in a hybrid model.
And I think what we’ve seen now is that people are really happy to be back into the office. They want to come to Town Halls, they want to interact with each other in that way. And that’s fantastic. That’s fantastic to see that there is that engagement there and that want from staff to collaborate and work together.
And then I think as well, we’ve been talking about doing more with less. Technology is helpful there as well. So we’re talking about the impact of AI and what’s that going to look like going forward. And I think there is going to be a lot of opportunity using technology to help the cost constraints in the marketing budget.
Aimee Cole: Completely agree. You need an effective, a nimble, team and that can come from more generalist roles. Your team need to have the ability to roll their sleeves up and get things done in a difficult time. There needs to be this focus on execution.
It’s not necessarily always the time for the big picture thinking. It’s the right, we’re in this together and we need to help sail the ship, direct it, keep doing what we’re doing, if not increase. What would it be more creative? Think outside of the box. So there has to be that real focus on execution and being nimble, and not just being stuck in your specialist silo.
Gemma Livermore: Yeah. So I completely agree with that. And then when we look at technology, what’s really interesting at the moment is that you’ve got all of this enablement technology and AI, which is allowing generalists to then hyper focus by using that technology and become specialists.
It’s in certain areas, a bit like going back to that beginning part of the conversation where knowledge is key. We’re not expecting everybody to know everything. What we’re doing is saying, let’s use technology to make sure everybody has access to what they need to do, what they need to know to then do their jobs effectively, properly. So that to me is that enablement piece that technology is supplying that allows us to navigate that ship, whether it’s high tide or low tide, we can navigate through it with that marketing plan of being consistent. And I think, touching then on to what you were talking about on the hybrid side, I think the pandemic taught us all that we all need that human interaction.
And I don’t know if it’s that then emphasised this springboard of AI and technology, but it’s really interesting how since the pandemic there is a much higher push, and I’d be interested to hear if Caroline and Aimee agree with this, there’s a much higher push in marketing to be personalised. And it’s almost like we were craving that human element as a society in so many layers that now marketing is so driven by that.
Caroline Ericsson: For sure. And I, but I think also that the authenticity has to remain within that need for personalisation. And so we’ve almost seen in the FinTech space, we’ve almost seen that this over personalised digital service is not really being felt at the heart of the consumer and at the customers.
And so I think it’s really important for brands who are using these, enabling tech was a really nice word. Thank you, Gemma. I’ve learned that new today, that whilst we using all these tools that we make sure that we do them in line with our brands, in line with our corporate values, in line with our USPs, so those customer touch points remain consistent and authentic.
And I think brands who don’t do that will struggle because consumers are expecting more from brands now in terms of sustainability, ethical focus, and so on and so forth. And so brands really need to make sure that they stay authentic to who they are whilst using those tools.
Aimee Cole: We need to remember that we’re still marketing and selling to human beings. And while AI and all of this enabling tech might influence decision making processes, or be a first round of, in an RFP process or something like that, ultimately the final decisions are still being made by people.
And AI and all of this enabling tech, it’s ultimately a tool that’s as useful as, the people putting it to work.
Gemma Livermore: I completely agree. I, I always feel like this AI topic goes off into, I’m showing my age here, into a tomorrow’s world sort of style, event, but, and talks about what it could do of the future and how it could take over people’s jobs. But it’s not about that in the here and now.
It’s about enabling the humans to do their job properly and, something I recently read was that AI is very good at solving big data problems and human brains are very good at solving small data problems. And so actually when you mix those two together, that’s powerful. And that is going back to what we said at the beginning, that is what’s going to enable financial services is that that point where it hits and it mixes.
Rachael Rowe: Yeah, absolutely. And I think also to keep it pragmatic, it’s around where AI really plays in workflows and how we can make those more efficient and more effective. To your point, Aimee, and, with the human face, because at the end of the day, people deal with people. And so I think that, that piece is really critical.
And I think just to dwell it, because we’re on a very interesting, kind of area of conversation here. So just to dwell on it a little bit more, there was a report by Deloitte recently, I’m not sure if you saw it, talking about the strides in technology and data, which have really now elevated the CMO role into the boardroom and I, this is a question for everybody, I’d be really interested to understand how technology and the intersection of technology and the ability to hyper personalise, how has that changed your role today?
Aimee Cole: I think there’s a real difference in that depending on if you are within Financial Services or FinTech as a B2B marketer or a B2C marketer, and I’m on the B2B side of it, B2B2C in some cases, in the nature that, ClearBank works.
The connection between tech and marketing has changed hugely and we are in a position where we can get into that hyper personalisation and we can start to look at that. And we’re just at the beginning of that journey at ClearBank. but it is starting to open those doors and starting to have those conversations across the business to really understand, okay, what can we do here?
What is the best message to deliver to these particular clients or prospect at this particular time, what should we be highlighting and what should we be talking to them about? What do they care about? rather than a kind of broad brush approach to marketing. So it is a really interesting time to be a marketer and we are shifting hugely towards more personalisation, more meaningful interactions, even on the B2B side, which is historically in financial services, let’s be honest, been a little bit dry.
Gemma Livermore: It’s, I think you’re right and I think, what’s changed during my career that I’ve seen, and the shifts that have changed, is that the different areas of business connect more with marketing now than ever before. And so actually, when you start working with the sales teams, the customer success teams, the product teams, and you have that connection, interaction and those kind of cross sections, if you like, you do start to create much more personalised content because you understand the customer from so many different angles and whether that be B2B or B2C, it’s still that same strategy of, okay, what is it that they are looking for and how can I deliver them that content?
And I think when you work with sales or other teams and you can put together that content strategically so it is personalised, you are going to get it used more by the company as well because, you know, gone are the days where, I don’t know, you create something that’s very clever because we’re all marketeers and we’re very clever. And then you think right where’s it gone? Who’s used it? Who’s seen it?
Whereas actually when you create it together with the other teams, there is going to be use of it across the company much more. In fact, I did look this up beforehand. I am cheating slightly looking down at the sheet. It says that when you’ve created your content with sales, it’s 350 percent more likely to be used by them.
Caroline Ericsson: And I think to add to both those points, I think absolutely. I completely agree with you the way that we’re now approaching B2B. marketing and communications.
It’s very much also being driven by, if you look at research, it’s attracting a lot more interest than I feel it’s done, historically from agencies who are now really going into creating target profiles, for B2B, customer segmentation.
Aimee Cole: We need to look forward as marketers, in these difficult times, we know that times of economic difficulty are cyclical and we also know that innovation happens in these times.
You’ve only got to look at the likes of Uber, Airbnb, etc. And when we come out of these times, we can see explosive growth, which is a really exciting position to be in. We know that investing in marketing and brand drives true value if you’re looking to IPO or to sell. and it’s a real false economy to, to cut back or neglect it when we do hit these trying times.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t get creative, we shouldn’t do what we know works and roll our sleeves up, but to fully cut back, it’s a false economy.
Rachael Rowe: That’s such a good point, Aimee. Yeah, and also it is a beautiful segue. I couldn’t, have planned it better, because I think if we now move to the future, so if we start talking about the aftershocks, so let’s talk about where we see the future of marketing going. So if we take two companies, one which invests in marketing now, to your point, Aimee, and one which doesn’t, how do you think they would compare in the future? And I guess if we start with you, Caroline, what would be your prediction?
Caroline Ericsson: As a marketeer, I think it’s, it’s fairly obvious that I would never suggest not to invest in marketing and communications. I think that we need to, as heads of marketing or as, the people responsible for the marketing function and budget, need to be really strong advocates in our roles, that the marketing is seen as an investment and not just a cost. And I think that conversation, we need to be very clear on and do that in a data driven way.
Aimee Cole: The proof has to be in the pudding, in terms of spend and your point around investment and not cost, Caroline, is bang on. We as marketers then have the duty as you said to, to pull that together and to actually prove the ROI. And I think a lot of businesses can sometimes think oh, marketing, it’s the softer stuff. It’s the nice bits and bobs. And actually, no, it’s cold, hard numbers. And that’s where we need to get to as marketing leaders in order to help our businesses see that it is an investment and not a cost.
Gemma Livermore: Completely agree. And the thing that I would liken it to is if you think of it in this way, if you’ve spent all of that time planting seeds, so you’ve invested in your marketing, and then a downturn happens and you don’t water those seeds, they’re not going to grow.
So what’s the point of having planted them in first place? So you have to carry on doing something to see that grow. And to your point of looking forward, I think marketing will become more about in the future, more about the growth of a company, and it will become part of that growth strategy more and more as we go on.
Rachael Rowe: I totally agree. I think, if we think in terms of client experience and the way that organisations are now really doubling down on being able to deliver a world class client experience, because that is where the competitive advantage lies in many cases within FS, even within the B2B space, to your point earlier, Caroline, around people dealing with people, I wonder what your thoughts are around the role that marketing will play in the future, in terms of organisational strategy?
Caroline Ericsson: So I think marketing will play a huge role and I think marketing teams and communications teams are very often the bridge between the customer and the business. And to nurture that relationship, if you like, is absolutely key. And it goes back to this authenticity that we were talking about earlier, that ensuring with the marketing and brand expertise that we have, we ensure that authenticity and those USPs are consistent, whether it’s a digital customer, touch point, or whether it’s a relationship driven one.
And I think that’s really important. That we as marketers are there to be the constant reminder to the business.
Aimee Cole: We’re right at that first point of contact, whether that’s through the website as your shop window, as you say, or through an interaction on LinkedIn with a prospective customer through to the way in which you speak to your employees and the tone of voice and how that employee value proposition and employer brand is communicated within the business, and where you see marketing of real value is when all of that comes together in a really holistic and cohesive approach that feels real, genuine, authentic, all of the good stuff that we’ve been talking about.
Gemma Livermore: And I think going back to our first question, Rachael, marketing, everything we’ve just said there, marketing enables the company. So marketing is that enablement factor, coined it here, hashtag, but it is, everything we’ve said there is what we’re doing, this is enabling financial services, whether it be to regrow, navigating bad times, good times, whether it be bringing the customer’s voice in or the sales voice in or nurturing those clients that we already have.
Everything comes back to marketing and marketing does become that enablement factor.
Rachael Rowe: Thank you, Gemma. That was beautifully tied up. It feels like we came full circle in our discussion today. We covered a lot of ground. It feels like we’ve only scratched the surface. I think there’s probably a lot more that we could dig into. but I would like to thank you all for being our guests for this discussion. Before we wrap up, I’d like to ask you to summarise in one word your takeaway from today’s session. So one word and one sentence, why that word.
Caroline Ericsson: I’ll go. So I’m looking at Gemma and for me, the word of today is enablement. And I think it’s exactly that clue that we’re going to be needing going forward. And so we need to position ourselves. It’s a paragraph already, not a sentence, but we need to position ourselves as the enablers, as the advocates, as the customer advocates, as the employee advocates.
Gemma Livermore: Okay. And cause Caroline’s taken my word, I’ll have to go with my second word. And second word of today, I would say streamlining. It really fits in with all of the conversation we’ve just had about how we need to streamline, whether we’re in good times or bad times, back to the core functions of what we need to do in marketing.
Aimee Cole: Nimble, the discussion that we’ve had, the importance of being flexible, being adaptable and nimble within these times, and having the ability to roll our sleeves up to get things done.
Rachael Rowe: Excellent. Thank you all very much for a great conversation. Thank you all for joining us today. Join us next time.
